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	<title>Comments on: Which Way of War?</title>
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		<title>By: Cincinattus Jr.</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/07/which-way-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-7011</link>
		<dc:creator>Cincinattus Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4372#comment-7011</guid>
		<description>Indeed, I do not think EFO (in the context of our discussion) really make much sense in contemporary military (at least &quot;western&quot;) usage.  The blowback through instantaneous internet and other communications really makes such an approach very likely to be counterproductive.

As to your assertion that the penchant of many of the Middle Eastern elites for a &quot;might is right&quot; approach (whether in their own use or in their &quot;respect&quot; for it when applied by others), I think there is a common thread that must be adequately taken into account and that is the role and effect of &quot;Islam&quot;  in assessing this aspect of the attitudes, policies and behaviors of the nations (and sub-national actors) in the region.

I purposely use quotes to both account for my admitted lack of expertise in the intricacies of its theology etc. and to rather use it generically to encompass those cultural (even tribal), political,  religious, customs etc. that appear to me at least to be involved in one way or the other (whether &quot;legitimately&quot; through recognized organs of Islam (or a given branch) or as is so often asserted since 9/11, as &quot;hijacked&quot; by various individuals and groups who use it as a legitimizing &quot;cover&quot; and recruiting tool for other baser motives). 

I suppose it is not that surprising that this aspect gets relatively little attention, whether substantively or certainly by the media given the hyper-sensitivity that usually is evident in that region and beyond when even the word &quot;Islam&quot; is used.  I believe there has been a very effective campaign waged by various Islamic groups (for example in America by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) and the Arab American Institute (AAI)) that has largely silenced or at least suppressed and &quot;neutered&quot; this critical aspect of the discussion.

Thus in the specific context of the Israeli discussion, I think it impossible to fully discuss much less understand the complexity etc. if we do not recognize (whether some in their post-modernity believe in such &quot;superstitions&quot;) the importance of the sectarian issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, I do not think EFO (in the context of our discussion) really make much sense in contemporary military (at least &#8220;western&#8221;) usage.  The blowback through instantaneous internet and other communications really makes such an approach very likely to be counterproductive.</p>
<p>As to your assertion that the penchant of many of the Middle Eastern elites for a &#8220;might is right&#8221; approach (whether in their own use or in their &#8220;respect&#8221; for it when applied by others), I think there is a common thread that must be adequately taken into account and that is the role and effect of &#8220;Islam&#8221;  in assessing this aspect of the attitudes, policies and behaviors of the nations (and sub-national actors) in the region.</p>
<p>I purposely use quotes to both account for my admitted lack of expertise in the intricacies of its theology etc. and to rather use it generically to encompass those cultural (even tribal), political,  religious, customs etc. that appear to me at least to be involved in one way or the other (whether &#8220;legitimately&#8221; through recognized organs of Islam (or a given branch) or as is so often asserted since 9/11, as &#8220;hijacked&#8221; by various individuals and groups who use it as a legitimizing &#8220;cover&#8221; and recruiting tool for other baser motives). </p>
<p>I suppose it is not that surprising that this aspect gets relatively little attention, whether substantively or certainly by the media given the hyper-sensitivity that usually is evident in that region and beyond when even the word &#8220;Islam&#8221; is used.  I believe there has been a very effective campaign waged by various Islamic groups (for example in America by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) and the Arab American Institute (AAI)) that has largely silenced or at least suppressed and &#8220;neutered&#8221; this critical aspect of the discussion.</p>
<p>Thus in the specific context of the Israeli discussion, I think it impossible to fully discuss much less understand the complexity etc. if we do not recognize (whether some in their post-modernity believe in such &#8220;superstitions&#8221;) the importance of the sectarian issues.</p>
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		<title>By: DPT</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/07/which-way-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-7010</link>
		<dc:creator>DPT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4372#comment-7010</guid>
		<description>Well said - though I once again see no evidence that Arab (or other Middle Eastern) leaders are very exceptional with regard to the idea of might making right - the Middle East has some callous dictatorships, yes, this is not unique to the region. In any case, you bring up the interesting point about the attacks on the population as a lever to extract concessions - it illuminates what is already a growing divide between IDF and US military doctrine.

In its latter day conflicts with Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas and Gaza, the IDF&#039;s casualty aversion and its adversaries use of civilian buildings has lead to high latitude for use of airpower in civilian areas, and even in some cases encouragement of striking select civilian targets for sybolic &quot;effects.&quot; Though EBO was tarnished in Lebanon, Cast Lead was not much of an improvement.

The US, on the other hand, has just appointed Mattis, who abolished the doctrine and terminology of EBO from JFCOM, to CENTCOM. I have trouble seeing the Israelis purging it from their way of war, particularly given its domestic political advantages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said &#8211; though I once again see no evidence that Arab (or other Middle Eastern) leaders are very exceptional with regard to the idea of might making right &#8211; the Middle East has some callous dictatorships, yes, this is not unique to the region. In any case, you bring up the interesting point about the attacks on the population as a lever to extract concessions &#8211; it illuminates what is already a growing divide between IDF and US military doctrine.</p>
<p>In its latter day conflicts with Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas and Gaza, the IDF&#8217;s casualty aversion and its adversaries use of civilian buildings has lead to high latitude for use of airpower in civilian areas, and even in some cases encouragement of striking select civilian targets for sybolic &#8220;effects.&#8221; Though EBO was tarnished in Lebanon, Cast Lead was not much of an improvement.</p>
<p>The US, on the other hand, has just appointed Mattis, who abolished the doctrine and terminology of EBO from JFCOM, to CENTCOM. I have trouble seeing the Israelis purging it from their way of war, particularly given its domestic political advantages.</p>
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		<title>By: Cincinnatus, Jr.</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/07/which-way-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-7009</link>
		<dc:creator>Cincinnatus, Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4372#comment-7009</guid>
		<description>Ed:

If you will fight the temptation to assess these matters throught the lens of partisan politics and in particular look into the progressive &quot;movement&quot; you may see things are a bit more complicated than your post suggests.  Further but in the same vein, your post likening the &quot;tea party movement to McCarthyism yells me you are letting your own biases cloud your ability to evaluate what is actually occurring (as opposed to how the media and our current masters spin it).  

Those who merely see these matters as the usual partisan bickering and &quot;pay back&quot; as your posts reflect are missing the substAntive aspects that represent paradigm shifts.  I would also note that while I think some of the tactics of McCarthy and his ilk were wrong, history has proven that there was indeed fire amidst the rhetorical smoke.

Those who conflate progressivism with &quot;liberalism,&quot; &quot;marxism,&quot; and otber such &quot;isms&quot; whether seriously or, as you appear to do in the manner of Saul Alinsky, to make light of and marginalize a contrary view demonstrate a rather shallow appreciation of what is really taking place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed:</p>
<p>If you will fight the temptation to assess these matters throught the lens of partisan politics and in particular look into the progressive &#8220;movement&#8221; you may see things are a bit more complicated than your post suggests.  Further but in the same vein, your post likening the &#8220;tea party movement to McCarthyism yells me you are letting your own biases cloud your ability to evaluate what is actually occurring (as opposed to how the media and our current masters spin it).  </p>
<p>Those who merely see these matters as the usual partisan bickering and &#8220;pay back&#8221; as your posts reflect are missing the substAntive aspects that represent paradigm shifts.  I would also note that while I think some of the tactics of McCarthy and his ilk were wrong, history has proven that there was indeed fire amidst the rhetorical smoke.</p>
<p>Those who conflate progressivism with &#8220;liberalism,&#8221; &#8220;marxism,&#8221; and otber such &#8220;isms&#8221; whether seriously or, as you appear to do in the manner of Saul Alinsky, to make light of and marginalize a contrary view demonstrate a rather shallow appreciation of what is really taking place.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/07/which-way-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-7004</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 07:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4372#comment-7004</guid>
		<description>The last 9 years or so have seen gigantic increases in US federal spending, and debt, and the executive grabbing lots of power. I won&#039;t even mention at least one totally unnecessary, reputation-destroying war. It is no doubt only a coincidence that the heroic tea-party patriotic movement has only started taking issue with these matters once a Democratic president is in charge. IOKIYAR?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last 9 years or so have seen gigantic increases in US federal spending, and debt, and the executive grabbing lots of power. I won&#8217;t even mention at least one totally unnecessary, reputation-destroying war. It is no doubt only a coincidence that the heroic tea-party patriotic movement has only started taking issue with these matters once a Democratic president is in charge. IOKIYAR?</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/07/which-way-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-7003</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 06:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4372#comment-7003</guid>
		<description>So Cincinnatus Jr, you&#039;re saying that &quot;progressives [use] the Democratic Party (and to a less obvious but no less real extent the traditional Republican Party) as in a sense like a parasite/host relationship whereby the former will use the latter merely as a vehicle to attain their ends&quot;.

Progressives = 5th column destroying America? By &quot;progressive&quot;, do you mean &quot;liberal&quot;? How about &quot;pinko&quot;? This is a bit McCarthy, isn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Cincinnatus Jr, you&#8217;re saying that &#8220;progressives [use] the Democratic Party (and to a less obvious but no less real extent the traditional Republican Party) as in a sense like a parasite/host relationship whereby the former will use the latter merely as a vehicle to attain their ends&#8221;.</p>
<p>Progressives = 5th column destroying America? By &#8220;progressive&#8221;, do you mean &#8220;liberal&#8221;? How about &#8220;pinko&#8221;? This is a bit McCarthy, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Cincinattus Jr.</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/07/which-way-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-7000</link>
		<dc:creator>Cincinattus Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4372#comment-7000</guid>
		<description>I take your points and would clarify one a bit further.  You said  &quot;Arab peoples receiving enough or insufficient coercive discipline from the IDF.&quot;  I agree in general with this as in many other cases where &quot;merely&quot; the application of violence and terror on a population generally and directly is that such an approach will not necessarily achieve the ends that are sought by this approach and in fact can often have a rebound effect of actually hardening the target population&#039;s resolve.  I suppose the only instances where one could argue that it has &quot;worked&quot; may be those where it is applied in the extreme, without exception, restraint or mercy as well as &quot;up close and personal&quot; (as opposed to a strategic bombing campaign for example) such that the target group is thoroughly and individually terrorized.  Even then, I would argue such a thorough-going domination cannot be sustained forever such that either the oppressor loses zeal or resources and/or the targeted group begins to resist even if &quot;only&quot; morally.

With respect to this approach in the Middle East, I think it is not necessarily the &quot;Arab people&quot; in general that live by or respond to the &quot;might it is right&quot; philosophy as it the elites (sectarian, governmental, terrorist, and/or other factions) who live (and die) by it.  The &quot;Arab people&quot; in general are usually not the intended (or desired) targets of this approach but rather usually end up the true victims of the actions of their ruling or influential elites either as collateral damage or as a &quot;lever&quot; to force compliance or concessions from a given elite that derives its power from popular support.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take your points and would clarify one a bit further.  You said  &#8220;Arab peoples receiving enough or insufficient coercive discipline from the IDF.&#8221;  I agree in general with this as in many other cases where &#8220;merely&#8221; the application of violence and terror on a population generally and directly is that such an approach will not necessarily achieve the ends that are sought by this approach and in fact can often have a rebound effect of actually hardening the target population&#8217;s resolve.  I suppose the only instances where one could argue that it has &#8220;worked&#8221; may be those where it is applied in the extreme, without exception, restraint or mercy as well as &#8220;up close and personal&#8221; (as opposed to a strategic bombing campaign for example) such that the target group is thoroughly and individually terrorized.  Even then, I would argue such a thorough-going domination cannot be sustained forever such that either the oppressor loses zeal or resources and/or the targeted group begins to resist even if &#8220;only&#8221; morally.</p>
<p>With respect to this approach in the Middle East, I think it is not necessarily the &#8220;Arab people&#8221; in general that live by or respond to the &#8220;might it is right&#8221; philosophy as it the elites (sectarian, governmental, terrorist, and/or other factions) who live (and die) by it.  The &#8220;Arab people&#8221; in general are usually not the intended (or desired) targets of this approach but rather usually end up the true victims of the actions of their ruling or influential elites either as collateral damage or as a &#8220;lever&#8221; to force compliance or concessions from a given elite that derives its power from popular support.</p>
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		<title>By: DPT</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/07/which-way-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-6999</link>
		<dc:creator>DPT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4372#comment-6999</guid>
		<description>I think it is wrong to the extent it is exaggerated as a reason to conduct very politically counterproductive operations. Middle Easterners understand force, sure, but so do Israelis, Americans, Chinese, and hill tribes in Papua New Guinea.

All humans understand force, but we understand other things, too, and force is, in Arab cultures as in European ones, an expression of, or instrumental to, politics. So while diplomacy should never ignore, and indeed should be founded upon, an understanding of force and its utility, it cannot be beholden to those considerations alone. I don&#039;t think you can explain events such as the 1979 treaty or the failure of the peace process since the &#039;90s purely in terms of Arab peoples receiving enough or insufficient coercive discipline from the IDF.

The recent flotilla fiasco is an example of an understanding of IO and public perceptions by Middle Easterners. They knew that even if their objective of &quot;breaking the blockade&quot; would be militarily refuted, they could influence regional diplomacy and global perceptions enough to put pressure on Israel. If the people in FGM only understood force, they would have considered sending vessels with little but axes, knives and metal rods (and, even if we give the IDF the benefit of the doubt, no more than a handful of small arms) against the Israeli navy totally naive and pointless.

It is my guess that people who employ IO also understand and themselves can be made susceptible to IO...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is wrong to the extent it is exaggerated as a reason to conduct very politically counterproductive operations. Middle Easterners understand force, sure, but so do Israelis, Americans, Chinese, and hill tribes in Papua New Guinea.</p>
<p>All humans understand force, but we understand other things, too, and force is, in Arab cultures as in European ones, an expression of, or instrumental to, politics. So while diplomacy should never ignore, and indeed should be founded upon, an understanding of force and its utility, it cannot be beholden to those considerations alone. I don&#8217;t think you can explain events such as the 1979 treaty or the failure of the peace process since the &#8217;90s purely in terms of Arab peoples receiving enough or insufficient coercive discipline from the IDF.</p>
<p>The recent flotilla fiasco is an example of an understanding of IO and public perceptions by Middle Easterners. They knew that even if their objective of &#8220;breaking the blockade&#8221; would be militarily refuted, they could influence regional diplomacy and global perceptions enough to put pressure on Israel. If the people in FGM only understood force, they would have considered sending vessels with little but axes, knives and metal rods (and, even if we give the IDF the benefit of the doubt, no more than a handful of small arms) against the Israeli navy totally naive and pointless.</p>
<p>It is my guess that people who employ IO also understand and themselves can be made susceptible to IO&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Cincinattus Jr.</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/07/which-way-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-6998</link>
		<dc:creator>Cincinattus Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4372#comment-6998</guid>
		<description>Sorry-if I knew how I would have underlined the operative word--&quot;misperceive.&quot;  I realize many Israelis (and others) have such a view.  I am curious as to what makes you say it is wrong?  To save you some time, I realize that there are some examples (individual &quot;Middle Easterners&quot; or certain policy decisions of some &quot;Middel Eastern&quot; governments) where this may not be &quot;true&quot; in all respects but my curiosity is focused on what makes that perception &quot;wrong&quot; or &quot;incorrect&quot; for those who hold it based on an overall appraisal of history of these issues since 1947.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry-if I knew how I would have underlined the operative word&#8211;&#8221;misperceive.&#8221;  I realize many Israelis (and others) have such a view.  I am curious as to what makes you say it is wrong?  To save you some time, I realize that there are some examples (individual &#8220;Middle Easterners&#8221; or certain policy decisions of some &#8220;Middel Eastern&#8221; governments) where this may not be &#8220;true&#8221; in all respects but my curiosity is focused on what makes that perception &#8220;wrong&#8221; or &#8220;incorrect&#8221; for those who hold it based on an overall appraisal of history of these issues since 1947.</p>
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		<title>By: DPT</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/07/which-way-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-6997</link>
		<dc:creator>DPT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4372#comment-6997</guid>
		<description>Are you asking of examples of Israelis having this perception, or evidence that this perception is inaccurate?

And certainly I understand why - my point was that Americans were never in the same position as Israel, being geographically distant and historically removed from the Middle East, and so the huge differences between Middle Eastern culture and their own are not readily apparent, which is not so with the Israelis, where proximity, history, and the violent character of relations make it difficult to see beyond the differences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you asking of examples of Israelis having this perception, or evidence that this perception is inaccurate?</p>
<p>And certainly I understand why &#8211; my point was that Americans were never in the same position as Israel, being geographically distant and historically removed from the Middle East, and so the huge differences between Middle Eastern culture and their own are not readily apparent, which is not so with the Israelis, where proximity, history, and the violent character of relations make it difficult to see beyond the differences.</p>
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		<title>By: Cincinattus Jr.</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/07/which-way-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-6996</link>
		<dc:creator>Cincinattus Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4372#comment-6996</guid>
		<description>Can you enlighten me as to examples that support your contention that Israel &quot;misperceive[s] in the opposite direction that Middle Easterners only understand force and will not stop supporting terrorism until they are defeated.&quot;?

Whether accurate or not, this is why many Israelis have the view, as one of my good friends in the IDF had put it, due to  its relative isolation in the region and the historic, political, cultural and sectarian chasm between it and its neighbors Israel cannot be content with &quot;an eye for an eye&quot; but instead must exact an &quot;eye for a tooth.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can you enlighten me as to examples that support your contention that Israel &#8220;misperceive[s] in the opposite direction that Middle Easterners only understand force and will not stop supporting terrorism until they are defeated.&#8221;?</p>
<p>Whether accurate or not, this is why many Israelis have the view, as one of my good friends in the IDF had put it, due to  its relative isolation in the region and the historic, political, cultural and sectarian chasm between it and its neighbors Israel cannot be content with &#8220;an eye for an eye&#8221; but instead must exact an &#8220;eye for a tooth.&#8221;</p>
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