Seems like there are some people out there who have this Afghanistan thing cracked. Two of them, conveniently, have their reasons condensed neatly into packages of ten points. Let’s have a shufti, shall we, Dear Readers?
First, from Victor Davis Hanson, a list of “ten considerations that suggest that Afghanistan is hardly lost”. For the most part the logic and content speaks for itself:
- General Petraeus. [Ed: 'Nuf said.]
- The mission…President Obama needs to remind America of the mission. We seek to foster a stable constitutional system in Afghanistan that will keep radical Islamists from offering sanctuary to international terrorists.
- Losses…Afghanistan is no Iraq, much less a Vietnam. In a war nearly a decade long, the United States has been remarkably adept in not losing its soldiers.
- Karzai in perspective…He cannot have been so good in 2004 only to suddenly have become so bad in 2010. [Ed: Yeah, about that...]
- Afghanistan was not always so…We hear that the country has always been ungovernable. But the British achieved their aims between 1878 and 1919 in preventing chaos.
- Eye off the ball?…We are doing well, then, on two fronts [preventing terrorist attacks on US soil and stabilising Iraq], and it would be a mistake to give up on the third.
- Executive inconsistency…Artificial deadlines for withdrawal convey the sense that the commander-in-chief is not fully committed to a successful Afghan strategy. The window for blaming Bush for Afghanistan has long been closed, and we will do far better when the administration accepts this.
- Diplomatic mess….Should we find one — and only one — diplomat who can partner with both General Petraeus and President Karzai, things will improve.
- Obama’s advantages. Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy, LBJ (for a time), and Clinton were all seen as reluctant warriors in a way Nixon and the Bushes were not. [Ed: May you be judged by the company you keep...]
Now, you may or may not appreciate this nonet of ‘considerations’. But you have got to love VDH’s finale:
10. We have no choice but victory. Either we stabilize the country, with all the accruing advantages from that achievement, or we withdraw in defeat and expect to reap a bitter harvest from that defeat.
Well, thanks for that, then, Vic.
Not to be outdone, Ralph Peters, took the time to compile his ‘Top Ten’ list, too. His is somewhat more ‘directive’, shall we say, perhaps reflecting his status as a ‘get it done’ kinda guy, as opposed to the more cerebral tone of the classical scholar that is VDH:
- Define victory down. We cancontinue to gut al Qaeda across the border in Pakistan and gore those Taliban who cooperate with bin Laden’s butchers.
- Push the Pakistanis to stop harboring terrorists. Petraeus sees the Pakistanis with refreshing clarity. The problem is that senior administration officials have drunk Pakistani Kool-Aid by the vat.
- Team with Ambassador Karl Eikenberry in Kabul.
- Streamline the rest of the team. Richard Holbrooke, Obama’s special envoy to the region, needs to go. Petraeus must be the go-to guy in AfPak.
- Quietly build relations with alternatives to Karzai. We need to start removing some of our eggs from the Karzai basket.
- Rethink operational priorities. Planting alternative crops doesn’t work; planting the bodies of dead terrorists does.
- Loosen the rules of engagement. Better dead Afghans than dead Americans…More-sensible ROE would be a huge morale booster for our troops.
- Take the fight to the enemy.
- More special operations, please.
- Insist on a long-term detention policy for dangerous captives.
Lots in that list to love: gut, gore, plant dead bodies, relax ROE to improve morale.
Who knew it was going to be so easy?
In other news, Andrew Bacevich has come out with his assessment on the health of American civil-military relations.
In an article published in the Washington Post, he looks at the impact of protracted war on both civil-military relations. He states that The Long War–and long wars in general–has had a corrosive effect on the interplay between generals, politicians, and society.
Bacevich uses this opportunity to underline his point (again!) that the ‘all volunteer force’ (that is, an armed forces that are not the product of compulsory service or conscription) is to blame.
The Long War is not America’s war. It belongs exclusively to “the troops,” lashed to a treadmill that finds soldiers and Marines either serving in a combat zone or preparing to deploy…To be an American soldier today is to serve a people who find nothing amiss in the prospect of armed conflict without end. Once begun, wars continue, persisting regardless of whether they receive public support.
American society is not engaged, they are not shouldering any part of the burden; therefore, they do not act as a brake on the militaristic jugernaut.
To be an American soldier today is to serve a people who find nothing amiss in the prospect of armed conflict without end. Once begun, wars continue, persisting regardless of whether they receive public support…Throughout history, circumstances such as these have bred praetorianism, warriors becoming enamored with their moral superiority and impatient with the failings of those they are charged to defend. The smug disdain for high-ranking civilians casually expressed by McChrystal and his chief lieutenants — along with the conviction that “Team America,” as these officers style themselves, was bravely holding out against a sea of stupidity and corruption — suggests that the officer corps of the United States is not immune to this affliction.
A sobering read, especially when spiced up with anecdotes from serving officers, who assert that McChrystal was not alone:
Pretty soon you have an entire organization believing that their leader is the ‘Savior’ and that everyone else is stupid and incompetent, or not committed to victory…Senior officers who condone this kind of behavior and allow this to continue and fester…create generation after generation of officers like themselves — but they’re generally so arrogant that they think everyone needs to be just like them anyway.
I guess Bacevich’s source was not a part of Team America.
What to do? Bacevich paints a stark choice:
The responsibility facing the American people is clear. They need to reclaim ownership of their army. They need to give their soldiers respite, by insisting that Washington abandon its de facto policy of perpetual war. Or, alternatively, the United States should become a nation truly “at” war, with all that implies in terms of civic obligation, fiscal policies and domestic priorities. Should the people choose neither course — and thereby subject their troops to continuing abuse — the damage to the army and to American democracy will be severe.
I’m no Delphic cephalopod, but I’d put my money on door number 3.





{ 59 comments… read them below or add one }
Both analyses on Afghanistan you cite are kind of familiar in their reasoning, even down to the touching belief by Ralph Peters that we can kill our way out of all problems and difficulties. The low bodycount issue is fallacious and can be dismissed-it is a product almost entirely of improved medevac and body armour. If NATO today were condemned to Soviet-era medevac and force protection then the bodycount would be far higher-as the number of WIA today (who in the past would simply have died on the battlefield) partly indicates. Hanson is meant to be a historian and should know this. More broadly, the debate within the Washington beltway at this point is rapidly becoming stale and circuitous. The problem these people seem to have is that they equate a phased and rational drawdown and withdrawal with ‘defeat’, whilst also continuing to assume that the Taliban could somehow just overrun Kabul in a matter of hours if we left next year. The whole problem with Western strategy towards Afghanistan in general is the persistent gigantic leaps in logic people use to justify the scale of our commitment there, and the concomitant need to ‘tough it out’ (title of a recent dire book by Michael O’Hanlon on this very issue).
“The low bodycount issue is fallacious and can be dismissed-it is a product almost entirely of improved medevac and body armour.”
What you say is true to an extent. However, to think that medevac and armor are essentially the sole reason for low friendly casualties is to ignore the doctrine, training, tactics and discipline of the today’s professional soldiers (and the fact the enemy is a poor shot). Those attributes significantly account for lower casualties and should not be so easily dismissed.
Granted. Again, Hanson is meant to be a historian who understands these things.
Only have time for on shot at this point as to the ever-entertaining Mr. Peters (one wonders if he may have been a speechwriter for the new CENTCOM heir apparent, Gen. Pat….erm, sorry, I meant Mattis.
His 7th point (“7. Loosen the rules of engagement. Better dead Afghans than dead Americans…More-sensible ROE would be a huge morale booster for our troops”) is at best inane and more like, worse as dangerous if any US officials try it. While there may be tweaks that can and should be made to the ROE (to my knowledge, unless something just appeared on Wikileaks, none of us on the “outside” really know the details–and in my experience with ROE, the devil truly is to be found there), his ludicrous statement that “dead Afghans are better than dead Americans” is not the kind of thing we should be saying. If by by “Afghans” he meant those who are actually engaged as our enemy then he should say so. It is quite dangerous, as shown dramatically in other counterinsurgencies, to speak so expansively of indigenous peoples in terms of their relative “human worth” when compared to Americans.
“American society is not engaged”
And there he is wrong. I have several times been brought close to tears by the spontaneous applause in airports (Baltimore, Denver) for troops going to or returning from the wars. I have a friend who meets every plane landing troops at the local airport (Portsmouth NH), even unto two o’clock in the morning, to bring them cookies and love.
Ask any conscript returning from Vietnam how much affection he was shown. Blue skies! — Dan Ford
Oldpilot – engagement is more than just showing appreciation for the troops. It means learning about the war and military issues beyond the battlefield so that, when they vote and petition their leaders for action, they can do so in an informed manner, and then making the necessary decisions on fiscal policy and other foreign policies to support their decision.
And here, like Bacevich, I do not see much evidence of engagement. Many Americans are apathetic to politics in general, but even among politically engaged Americans, little attention has been paid to Afghanistan until recent years, when many voters have just started to realize that “the good war” was not automatically the same as the “winnable war.” Supporting the troops when they come home is a necessary step, but an informed public needs also to understand what they want these troops to accomplish, what resources are necessary for the task they set, and under what conditions those resources can achieve those objectives. That kind of engagement is still too uncommon.
I remembered reading the article from Hanson a week or so ago, and found most of his arguments fallacious.
1.) Gen. Petraeus is a skilled general, no doubt, but he fell in on a situation that was working to his advantage (Anbar Awakening, a civil war in Baghdad which had run its course by mid-2007, etc). He may not be so lucky in Afghanistan.
2.) “The Mission” harkens back to the old debate about why we are trying to make Afghanistan uninhabitable for terrorists (and how do we evaluate this?) when most have fled into Pakistan. In fact, Pakistan is curiously absent from his article, despite the fact that Pakistan’s ISI is one of the leading funders of the Taliban.
I could go on point-by-point–especially point #10, which is Domino-theory alarmist nonsense–but the article infuriates me that much. Sadly, I agree with Ralph Peters.
Surely we’ll listen to Peters when he stops endangering US soldiers and assisting enemy propaganda? Or rather, we will at some date after that point, as the man has a lot of other stuff to live down?
Tried the link. Couldn’t get past the first couple of profanities and emotional hyperventilation.
Pearl clutching aside, shouldn’t it worry you that actual Pakistani officers think that the US has a secret plan to partition their country based on one of Peters’ more idiotic pieces?
“Pearl clutching aside”
I have no idea what you mean so I defer to your personal experience.
One pundant writes a thought piece and the perpetually aggreived are upset and see a conspiracy? Shocking.
The Faceless Bureaucrat & Starbuck
I clicked the link provided and discovered that VDH does actually provide reason as to why we should be optimistic about the appointment of Petraeus.
Incidentally, the argument is not fallacious and a standard form reconstruction of it shows that pretty clearly:
1. If a general has had considerable past success there is a decent probability he will have future ones.
2. If a general has a decent probability of future success then we have some reason to be hopeful.
3. General Petraeus has experienced considerable past success.
4. Therefore, General Petraeus has a decent probability of future success.
5. Therefore, we have some reason be hopeful.
The argument is deductively valid since it’s a combination of two modus ponens. Maybe I’m just being pedantic?
Anyway, the premises might well be false, but that’s a different issue. Although given what I’ve heard about his abilities and qualifications I’m inclined to be more hopeful than I was before hand.
Presumably we could also say: some parts of Afghanistan are desert. General Petraeus has enjoyed success in sandy places in the past. Therefore there is some hope he will be successful in sandy dusty places in Afghanistan?
Pericles,
I’m not sure what you mean. You seem to be saying past success as a general has no bearing on the probability of future success as a general. That’s an odd position.
Irony is clearly dead. Afghanistan bears little if any resemblance to Iraq, and there is not much evidence to argue that the constellation of factors that came together in Iraq for Petraeus (not least the sectarian cleansing of Baghdad) are going to re-occur in Afghanistan. Plus, basing and investing entire strategies around ‘lucky’ generals is not a policy that has worked out terribly well for either states or empires in the past. What’s odd would be to argue the reverse as you appear to be doing-that everything is suddenly going to get better largely because Petraeus is now in charge. We’ve been here before-that was what Stan McChrystal was going to do, and he was going to be ‘terrific’ because he had been ‘terrific’ in Iraq.
Pericles,
Why would Afghanistan have to resemble Iraq for a talented general to have a non-negligible chance of success? Also, it’s frivolous to suppose his success in Iraq was simply because of a “constellation of factors that came together in Iraq for Petraeus”. As if, somehow, his strategic abilities and leadership had absolutely nothing to do with it; that it was just a question of luck.
Anyway, VDH’s argument was simply that we have more reason to be hopeful given his appointment. Your argument is a clear straw man against me, Edward and VDH.
Pericles,
You could say that – but it would be invalid.
Pericles,
The argument is stated clearly above. It contains no such conclusion.
Reading the list by VDH I was truely amazed.
From one to nine he managed to keep it normal and with a good (if slightly optimistic approach and then BAM he lets out number ten and the veneer of lucidity gets ripped away.
Granted, he acknowledges both the win and loss scenaris in the statement but when its phrased like it was (“We have no choice but victory”) it all start to sound like a sports coach pep talk at half time in the big game.
No choice but victory sound like “death or glory” or “death or victory” or something suitably gung ho and shows what happens when you hang around right wing think tanks. He should stick to what hes good at; classical studies and growing grapes.
The Ralph Peters list makes it look as if Victory shoud have been achived yesterday given how easy he makes it sound, at least VDH made some decent points.
Overall the language of both of them makes it obvious that they dont have an option for “loss” in their model/mindset. And while I dont think there is little chance for the US in Afghanistan I do concenede that a “win” could happen but it would take major shifts in both militay, economic and security concerns inside and outside Afghanistan for such a situation to occur.
So – leaving aside the ad hominem – you don’t actually disagree with VDH on his last point; you just find the style of his prose distasteful?
No I disagree with his statement because the changes required to make such a “victory” possible are simply impossible to be achived by the US as it is. His acknowledgeing the possibility of failure is undercut by the “no choice” of his statement. Nothing ad hominem about pointing that out.
The “choice” of a US withdrawl is inevitable and its not if the US stays or goes but more how they leave that will matter, VDH is ignoring that. The bitter harvest will be felt more in Washington than in Kabul.
I think you’re being particularly uncharitable to VDH. His argument was clearly not that it would be logically or practically impossible to lose the war. That would be ridiculous. As I read it, he’s saying it’s morally/pragmatically unthinkable to do so.
“The bitter harvest will be felt more in Washington than in Kabul” Sorry, I’m not really sure what you mean by this. Can you explain? Thanks.
You may be right that I am being a bit unkind to Mr Hanson, I have read his work and while I found his early stuff dealing with classical warfare on the level with early Keegan (who in fact wrote the introduction to his first book) its his later work which is more fitting the historical facts to fit his particular ideology that I have issue with.
But I dont think you got my point about his number ten. You may be right that it is morally and pragmatically unthinkable to loose in Afghanistan and that is my point, the blinders are on, ideology is overriding any reality, hence the word “unthinkable” which you yourself have used, I have trouble seeing what is unthinkable about a US pullback (and before I am accused of being geopolitically naive I am aware of what a US pullout could do to the region but I dont think it would be any more o a catastrophe than the situation is now, if that).
I seem to remember a host of arguments why the US could not loose in Vietnam and what would happen if it did and none of it came to pass, sure the US pride was wounded but it recovered (I think) and much of the position being taken was the same, that it was morally and pragmatically impossible to loose, yet loose the US did and the dire warnings never came to pass. Its the same thing now.
As for the bitter harvest in Kabul and Washington that was me being more facetious than serious. Mostly a play on the fact that the US seems more intent on winning than the inhabitants in Afghanistan
Without knowing whether or not you are of a “certain age” to know better or otherwise have made the Vietnam War and its aftermath one of your areas of academic interest, I will take a deep breath before responding……..there, I feel a bit better.
I will also grant you that the context of your stunning remark “I seem to remember a host of arguments why the US could not loose in Vietnam and what would happen if it did and NONE of it came to pass…” (my emphasis), you may have meant only the effects in the United States–although even as so limited I think there were profound “effects” even domestically.
Turning however to the broader import of your assertion, I think there are several million (I suppose somewhat like our grotesquely bloating deficit now measured in trillions, why be more precise when talking such large numbers) souls (sorry but that is what they represent in my faith) who lost their lives or were otherwise brutalized following the end of the Vietnam War. If you are a film buff you may “enjoy” The Killing Fields and Journey from the Fall that do a fairly good job of recounting the horrors suffered by millions of people at the hands of (dare I say it) the Communists in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.
Your perhaps inadvertent and unintended overstatement obviously resonated with me deeply as I still marvel at the incredible silence both at the time this was occurring and thereafter of most of the UN and even worse perhaps so many of those who professed to “care” so much for the people of the region when it was the evil US that was doing the killing. Indeed, it was this unforgettable and unforgivable “averting of gaze” from these crimes against humanity that gave be an abiding suspicion of and as to some, disgust of many of those who identified themselves with the “peace” movements of the 1960′s and thereafter as they morphed into different organizations supposedly concerned about the many worries of the world. As shown in this black chapter of human history, they are quite selective as to their concern for humanity, usually on the basis of their progressive ideologies.
“If you are a film buff you may “enjoy” The Killing Fields and Journey from the Fall that do a fairly good job of recounting the horrors suffered by millions of people at the hands of (dare I say it) the Communists in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.”
Right, except that Cambodia and Laos are different countries then Vietnam.
And it was the communists in Vietnam who invaded and overthrew the Khmer Rouge, who were cynically supported by the US to poke the eye of the Vietnamese and USSR governments.
A little bit of context and background history will help you in making your points in the future.
Andrew, you’re being petty. So the films referred to actually feature entirely different countries. What matters is those Progressommunists were behind it all! Dominoes! Reds!
ps CJ, to the nearest million, how many Indochinese people did the Progressommunists kill, and how many did the heroic US liberators kill? You know, since it’s your field of expertise. Or does it not matter since the universe has other large numbers in it, like the US public debt, or the number of atoms in the solar system?
Ed,
What is this word?
Pure, biting satire. A portmanteau of “progressive” and “communist”, two words that occupy the same place in Mr Jr’s vocab.
Snarkastic.
I would say “thankyou”, but since GR has made explicit his allegation of the connection between progressivism and communism that I suggest CJ was implying, this point is now beyond satire and a simple fact.
Someone better tell the Revolutionary Communist Progressive Labor Party. . . .http://www.plp.org/
Professor Jeffreys-Jones’ “Changes in the Nomenclature of the American Left,” Journal of American Studies, 2010, 44 : 83-100 Cambridge University Press, is instructive on this point as well.
Presumably, those who call themselves “Republicans” favour the establishment of People’s Democratic Republics. Right? You know, since the word is the same.
Still being silly…
Correct. Unfortunately, so are those trying to lump together all people more left-wing than them. The difference is that I am being silly deliberately.
I’m not sure I understand this. Sure, Laos and Cambodia are different countries. But Vietnam isn’t.
I suppose it depends on how tightly you focus your analysis. Many observers have made a number of connections among the situations in all 3 of those countries during this terrible time that provide a sufficient nexus at least for me that the end of the war in Vietnam set off a chain of events or was a continuation of such events (take your pick) that led to the slaughter.
“Heroic liberators” eh? How very droll.
If you understood progressivism a bit better than you appear (of course I suppose you are merely trying to be funny) you might realize progressivism was a large component of the involvement of the US in that war in the first place.
Answer the question, Mr Jr. You have alluded to the dreadful suffering caused by the Progressommunists murdering many, many people in Indochina. Please draw on your deep expertise and tell us how many millions of Vietnamese (and Cambodians and Laotians) did US forces kill during the Glorious Liberation of Vietnam?
Note by the way that in separate posts you have said that progressives were both for involvement in Vietnam, and against involvement in Vietnam. Apparently progressivism has a truly first-class mind in that it can “hold two opposing views in the head at the same time”. Or, Occam’s Razor might instead lead us to conclude that you are quite confused about what progressive means, and about what you mean by it.
You should reference Rummel from the Univ of Hawaii. He has done exhaustive research and documents well democide totals of Vietnam, as well as all other governments and movements. (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP6.HTM )
Usually Wikipedia is a non-source, but in this case they have a short write-up that distills the data Rummel collected:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#CITEREFRummel1997 .
Take an hour or so and dive in, you might find the data refreshingly interesting (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/), especially http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB6.1A.GIF , and of course, http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DIMENSIONS.HTM (where the graphic at the top-right is very telling).
I’ll let you do your own research regarding the deaths and suffering of the Vietnamese boat-people as they were forced to flee the communist (progressive) regime.
Have fun.
I’ll let you do your own research regarding the deaths and suffering of the Vietnamese boat-people as they were forced to flee the communist (progressive) regime.
This is it in a nutshell (how apt): both GR and CJ are attempting to smear the progressive idea by saying that communists are progressive. Of course, since Teddy Roosevelt was explicitly a progressive, doesn’t that mean TR was a communist, and therefore a traitor? And isn’t calling the Preznit a traitor itself treason? Oh, what a tangled web.
By the way, GR, since you’re already familiar with the data, please help us out by answering the question: how many Indochinese were killed by US forces, and how many by each Communist faction (PAVN, VC, KR, Pathet Lao).
Ed,
If someone says “Progressives were both for and against Vietnam”, it seems more sensible to think they mean “Some were for it and some against it”, rather than “Individual progressives were, schizophrenically, both for and against it at the same time”.
The way he wrote it, it appeared to be part of the progressive agenda to be for involvement (the progressive Kennedy administration) and against it (the progressive dirty hippie movement).
Hi CJ
I work with people from Asia as a daily part of my job and many of them went through the period of history you mention so while I did not live through it personally I know it well as its my job to know it well or I cant do my job.
That aside it was Vietnam who invaded Cambodia and try and end stop to Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge not the US or anyone else. And while Pol Pot came to power through support from China, the US bombing of Cambodia helped create the conditions for his rise (what are the drones in Pakistan doing?)
I might have seemed a bit broad in my descriptions of the situation (or would naive be better) but I deal with this history daily and I know and have met many who went through it and the common thread of the people I meet is that it didnt matter who won or lost but simply stopping the fighting that mattered.
Pol Pot and his plans for rural paradise were as much a twisted consequence of the times as the war in Vietnam as anything and if it took Vietnam invading cambodia to stop that then so much so.
I have seen the films you mentioned but I suggest visting the killing fields if you havnt as it doesnt take long after looking at those piles of skulls to see that any moral argument to continue the fighting matters only to those who are not in the fighting.
I certianly meant no insult to you and my post was narrowly focused. I have indeed been to the killing fields both in and around Vietnam and also know of the post-war turmoil in the region.
I stand by my observation that it ranks with other black chapters in “modern” human history (right up there with the, as some western true believers smugly put it, “necessary” measures by Uncle Joe Stalin in “controlling” his “own” people) that so much murder went on with so little notice by others who professed to be so concerned with “human rights.”
I also have a very close friend who survived, with his family, the tender mercies of his new masters after the fall of South Vietnam. After months of enlightened “re-education” in a concentration camp they managed to make their way to a boat to join thousands of others who took to the sea to escape. After more kind ministrations from the pirates who took all they had and raped all the females in his family they eventually found their way to the US where, without exception, they have thrived and become productive citizens.
My point is not that these events justify continuing a war that should be ended but rather to remind all of us that there is inevitably a human cost involved that should not be taken lightly, even inadvertently, especially by those of us in the comfort of our respective situations waxing eloquent about such things.
Hi CJ
I wasnt upset and I agree with you about the whole period, after a point it became irrelevant about who was doing what because everyone was at it one way or another and the average person was just trying to get away from it.
I think in this thread (as in most of the threads I am in on this forum) my position holds the idea that its not that Afghanistan and Iraq et al are wrong or right or that history is repeating itself exactly and I can Casandra my way though the discussion but that War as used and driven by states is now functionally unable to achieve the political outcomes it once was.
I dont normally cite someone but I think this is one of the best examples of a brief explanation of the dilemma we face no matter which war we fight
Technological and sociological progress had rendered war to dangerous as a means for achieving national objectives, but the rulers of nations had not recognized it – half a century later we are just beginning to grasp the idea – and their political imagination had not evolved the techniques or concepts of diplomacy capable of settling major international problems without resort to war (neither has ours)
That is from The Fossil Monarchies by Edmund Taylor, he is describing the time just before World War One but I see little in the above that cant be applied to the people running our wars now or the systems we have for dealing with conflict today.
As is often the case, the more we can clarify the closer we come in terms of relative perspectives and positions. It is funny (if not a bit eerie) that you cite Taylor’s work as I had it before me yesterday in a slightly different context.
It struck me then, albeit without the focus your post has now provided, that this idea (shared by others in different forms) of war being in some way “obsolete” (technologically, diplomatically, “morally,” intellectually etc. etc.) when held up next to our history that is marked(and often benchmarked) by warfare. This is not only our history but our present and clearly our future.
For me, largely due to my faith belief, the common denominator to explain this seemingly perpetual disconnect (how many wars have been the “war to end all wars”?) is the nature of humankind. It is immutable in general terms (there are always thankfully bright moments when some do the good and right thing in spite of their base nature) and especially so when aggregated into “tribes,” clans, “cultures,” “societies,” nations and even coalitions.
I suppose in these difficult economic times, the “good” news of this may be that scholars of the many aspects of war will never want for grist for their academic mills.
I think I would agree with your sentiments, we havent changed but the means of making war, the scope and effect have, hence our dilema.
Daniel D
I see.
No, no. “Unthinkable” as in “Out of the question”.
Ed:
I truly regret that I have yet been unable to explain the nuances of progressivism in order for you to make sense of my points. Your apparent inability to look beyond your constructs is a convenient type for much of the limited understanding and resulting discourse at least in America that also becomes bogged down with partisan pigeonholing and too great a focus on what I (in my admitted stumbling along in the wilderness of contrarian thought, such as it is of course for Neanderthals with limited cognitive abilities rooted as we are in the old pre-modern ways) would consider the “symptoms” (the various “isms”) rather than the actual disease.
Not trying to be partisan, I do think that a definition of ‘progressivism’ would be useful in this discussion. From reading previous posts it seems to be most commonly associated with positivism-namely the belief that all human beings, via a technocratic education, can be evolved to a roughly approximate level of civilization. Cincinattus Jr. comes across by contrast as more a constitutional romantic-someone who believes that human nature is at base shallow, prone to savagery, and motivated by pure individual self-interest, and can only realistically be balanced by a ‘rational’ constitutional system-contain, don’t attempt to transform. However I may be wildly misrepresenting his views. More to the point however, I have difficulty correlating much of this to foreign policy, either past or present, and the side argument about dominoes and death tolls seems to be going way off the point. American foreign policy, like the foreign policy of most states throughout history, strikes me as predominantly pragmatic-hence support in the past for democidal regimes like the Khymer Rouge or despots like the Shah of Iran. One could feign outrage, but alas in the international community it is mostly a case of glass houses all round (with very very few exceptions, most of them not great powers). As to the positivist vs romanticist debate, I don’t buy into either position entirely myself, but I do think moving to a closer fusion/merger between C P Snow’s ‘two cultures’ in the Western academy is probably the best way forward.
An interesting, if slightly diffuse, discussion.
I share your apparent frustration as to an all-encompassing definition but my humble effort at reading at least some of the literature tells me it is a bit of a moving target and, as is true in many such efforts, also much depends on the particular academic discipline and world view of the proponent as well as the seeker.
This point was made well by one of the more prolific students of the subject, Prof. D.T. Rodgers of Princeton, who, has wrestled with the evolutionary nature of the term and the varying perspectives that describe it as a “movement,” “philosophy,” “concept” etc. with both common and disparate elements and characteristics (“In Search of Progressivism,” 1982, The Johns Hopkins University Press, http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic647503.files/Rodgers%20–%20In%20Search%20of%20Progressivism.pdf)
In terms of more recent scholarship, the overview provided by Prof. Nugent of Notre Dame (Progressivism: A Very Short Introduction, 2010, Oxford University Press, http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=7kNGGg9E8r8C&oi=fnd&pg=PP17&dq=+progressivism&ots=PaQ8_MKiDv&sig=egFXoAcL1jUmqTjGlHmHZG8gmB8#v=onepage&q&f=false) is helpful at least as to the origins and some of its major movers and shakers, albeit overly focused on the American view.
As to the involvement of progressivism in America’s Vietnam adventure, Jonathan Monten’s 2005 article “The Roots of the Bush Doctrine: Power, Nationalism, and Democracy Promotion in U.S. Strategy,” International Security, Vol 29, No 4, pp 112-156 discusses the linkage in the context of “liberal exceptionalism” that also is descriptive of “progressivism” in terms of its origins and evolution.
Arthur Ekirch also makes this point, albeit a bit more obliquely in his 1979 article, “The Reform Mentality, War, Peace, and the National State: from the Progressives to Vietnam,” in the Journal of Libertarian Studies. (http://74.125.155.132 /scholar?q=cache:OryUhi5s_oUJ:scholar.google.com/+Leuchtenberg+%22Progressivism+and+Imperialism%22+vietnam&hl=en&as_sdt=80000)
Professor Eisuke Sakakibara also makes my point about progressivism being an underlying continuum for various “isms” in his article “The End of Progressivism: A Search for New Goals,” Foreign Affairs, Vol. 74, No. 5 (Sep. – Oct., 1995), pp. 8-14 .
Another useful read can be found in the blog of some (gasp) lawyer academics, The Volokh Conspiracy, where one of its contributors, Professor Bernstein, provides a critique of a recent effort of a “progressivist think tank,” the Center for American Progress to chronicle and chart the history and course of the “Progressive Movement.” http://volokh.com/2010/04/16/whitewashing-progressivism/
I hope this helps.
C Jr., your post got stuck in our spam filter, I think because of the links, from where I have just liberated it. Sorry about that. I don’t always notice when a comment is imprisoned there but if I turn it off the place gets infested with breast enlargement and v*i*a*g*r*a comeons.
Ed(ward):
Given the sensory limitations of this means of communication (that on occasion struggles to the level of reasoned discourse) and my not having the pleasure of knowing you beyond your posts, i can but assume you are just being silly now. Otherwise, I am puzzled by your post since the same “logic” would make your usual broadsides against the ever evil (or “heroic,” colonial, imperial etc,) questionable in that I can but assume not all Americans were of one mind as you allege.
I hope you take Gunrunner’s suggestions about a bit more research on your part. Enjoy your reading.
Cincinnatus, Jr.
Ed and I, I feel I should point out, are very different people.
I think such fine distinctions are beyond him.
Due to highly frustrating delays in posting and then trying (unsuccessfully) to edit my post, I will now add the intended “US” after my signature parenthetical (it is acurse-/see what I mean?) of adjectives so often thrown around about America usually more for the incendiary effect than meaningful substance,
David:
Many thanks altough judging by the angst some of my missives seem to cause, your spam filter may be more inuitive than you thoughr!!
Ed(ward):
I am sure it is just me and my appreciation of irony, but your accusation(s) that routinely rely on “lumping” make your latest post even funnier. ;-)