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	<title>Comments on: Cohesion in coin</title>
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		<title>By: Cincinattus Jr.</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/06/cohesion-in-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-7783</link>
		<dc:creator>Cincinattus Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4247#comment-7783</guid>
		<description>You are too kind but I am a mere wannabe in the presence of the other denizens of these threads who are true giants of academe.

If you do read Ruddy on Teddy (see what I did there), you may also see him a bit more clearly than he is so often portrayed as a sort of mustachioed &quot;teddy bear&quot; (I did it again, sorry) who jovially goes about the world with his big stick (and big gun killing big evil-but defenseless-creatures as &quot;sport&quot; for his very needy ego).

As his full quote indicates, his &quot;progressive&quot; world view drips with an arrogant elitism that is then manifested in racism among other things that we see repeated in grotesque fashion thereafter.  This includes such &quot;progressive&quot; things as eugenics, the elevation of propaganda literally to an art form and various and sundry other wonderful innovations that contributed to a world war, a cold war, a war on poverty and other wonders.  All of these have a common thread of consolidating political and economic power in the hands of various elites (either through force or more benignly through encouraging increasing reliance on our elite masters for our every need) at the expense of personal freedom and self-respect.  But we should not complain as it is all for our &quot;greater good.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are too kind but I am a mere wannabe in the presence of the other denizens of these threads who are true giants of academe.</p>
<p>If you do read Ruddy on Teddy (see what I did there), you may also see him a bit more clearly than he is so often portrayed as a sort of mustachioed &#8220;teddy bear&#8221; (I did it again, sorry) who jovially goes about the world with his big stick (and big gun killing big evil-but defenseless-creatures as &#8220;sport&#8221; for his very needy ego).</p>
<p>As his full quote indicates, his &#8220;progressive&#8221; world view drips with an arrogant elitism that is then manifested in racism among other things that we see repeated in grotesque fashion thereafter.  This includes such &#8220;progressive&#8221; things as eugenics, the elevation of propaganda literally to an art form and various and sundry other wonderful innovations that contributed to a world war, a cold war, a war on poverty and other wonders.  All of these have a common thread of consolidating political and economic power in the hands of various elites (either through force or more benignly through encouraging increasing reliance on our elite masters for our every need) at the expense of personal freedom and self-respect.  But we should not complain as it is all for our &#8220;greater good.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tripper</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/06/cohesion-in-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-7781</link>
		<dc:creator>Tripper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Sep 2010 10:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4247#comment-7781</guid>
		<description>You, Sir, are a scholar for finding the source, thank you.  The full quote immediately made me think of Frederick&#039;s &#039;Black Heart&#039;s.&#039;  Iraq in 05 may not have been war with &#039;savages&#039;; but it was terrible and inhuman.  I must add Ruddy to my reading pile.  Regards, T.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You, Sir, are a scholar for finding the source, thank you.  The full quote immediately made me think of Frederick&#8217;s &#8216;Black Heart&#8217;s.&#8217;  Iraq in 05 may not have been war with &#8216;savages&#8217;; but it was terrible and inhuman.  I must add Ruddy to my reading pile.  Regards, T.</p>
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		<title>By: Cincinattus Jr.</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/06/cohesion-in-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-7775</link>
		<dc:creator>Cincinattus Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2010 16:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You are correct-it is there as well as Ruddy quotes it in his recent book on our first &quot;Progressive&quot; president. http://www.amazon.com/Theodore-Roosevelts-History-United-States/dp/0061834327/

The entire quote is:

&quot;The most righteous of all wars is a war with savages, though it is apt to be also the most terrible and inhuman. It is primeval warfare, and it is waged as war was waged in the ages of bronze and iron. All the merciful humanity that even war has gained during the last two thousand years is lost. A sad and evil feature of such warfare is that the whites, the representatives of civilization, speedily sink almost to the level of their barbarous foes, in point of hideous brutality. Odd things happen in a battle, and the human heart has strange and gruesome depths and the human brain still stranger shallows. &quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are correct-it is there as well as Ruddy quotes it in his recent book on our first &#8220;Progressive&#8221; president. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Theodore-Roosevelts-History-United-States/dp/0061834327/" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Theodore-Roosevelts-History-United-States/dp/0061834327/</a></p>
<p>The entire quote is:</p>
<p>&#8220;The most righteous of all wars is a war with savages, though it is apt to be also the most terrible and inhuman. It is primeval warfare, and it is waged as war was waged in the ages of bronze and iron. All the merciful humanity that even war has gained during the last two thousand years is lost. A sad and evil feature of such warfare is that the whites, the representatives of civilization, speedily sink almost to the level of their barbarous foes, in point of hideous brutality. Odd things happen in a battle, and the human heart has strange and gruesome depths and the human brain still stranger shallows. &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: Tripper</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/06/cohesion-in-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-7774</link>
		<dc:creator>Tripper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2010 16:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Oh crumbs - I didn&#039;t capture the source - but I am pretty sure it was in the Washington Post&#039;s review of Nathaniel Philbrick&#039;s book about Little Bighorn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh crumbs &#8211; I didn&#8217;t capture the source &#8211; but I am pretty sure it was in the Washington Post&#8217;s review of Nathaniel Philbrick&#8217;s book about Little Bighorn.</p>
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		<title>By: Cristofer</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/06/cohesion-in-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-7773</link>
		<dc:creator>Cristofer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Sep 2010 15:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Just only appreciation of the discussion on emotions. Tripper, please
send the exact souce of T. Roosevelt´s quote. I will ponder it, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just only appreciation of the discussion on emotions. Tripper, please<br />
send the exact souce of T. Roosevelt´s quote. I will ponder it, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Cincinattus Jr.</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/06/cohesion-in-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-6471</link>
		<dc:creator>Cincinattus Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jun 2010 02:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Tipper:

Your reference to TR caused me to recall  the earlier aside in this thread about the validity of the observation in spite of the questionable bona fides of SLA Marshall. I guess  TR may have stated a &quot;truth&quot; (almost common sensical to me), but given his (IMHO) poseur status in terms of anything to do with real military knowledge and experience (notwithstanding his &quot;Rough Rider&quot; persona) I think the same skepticism suggested for SLAM would apply here as well .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tipper:</p>
<p>Your reference to TR caused me to recall  the earlier aside in this thread about the validity of the observation in spite of the questionable bona fides of SLA Marshall. I guess  TR may have stated a &#8220;truth&#8221; (almost common sensical to me), but given his (IMHO) poseur status in terms of anything to do with real military knowledge and experience (notwithstanding his &#8220;Rough Rider&#8221; persona) I think the same skepticism suggested for SLAM would apply here as well .</p>
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		<title>By: Tripper</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/06/cohesion-in-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-6467</link>
		<dc:creator>Tripper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jun 2010 22:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4247#comment-6467</guid>
		<description>A very insightful post.  Today&#039;s review section of the WaPo had a quote from Teddy Roosevelt that chimed well with your thoughts: 
&quot;Odd things happen in a battle [and in war], and the human heart has strange and gruesome depths and the human brain still stranger shallows.&quot;  Keep up the good work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very insightful post.  Today&#8217;s review section of the WaPo had a quote from Teddy Roosevelt that chimed well with your thoughts:<br />
&#8220;Odd things happen in a battle [and in war], and the human heart has strange and gruesome depths and the human brain still stranger shallows.&#8221;  Keep up the good work.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Payne</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/06/cohesion-in-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-6452</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jun 2010 19:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4247#comment-6452</guid>
		<description>Paul - that last is an interesting point. And, I&#039;m sure too that attitudes to individual and collective behaviour vary culturally even in our day and age. 

It&#039;s perhaps less the ingrained norms of, say, what it means to be a good family man and patriot, or even ideological fanatic, that I&#039;m suggesting shapes responses to terror and fear, and more what cues we can read from the reaction of others. Are they getting on with it, even appearing nonchalant, or running hellbent to the hills?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul &#8211; that last is an interesting point. And, I&#8217;m sure too that attitudes to individual and collective behaviour vary culturally even in our day and age. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s perhaps less the ingrained norms of, say, what it means to be a good family man and patriot, or even ideological fanatic, that I&#8217;m suggesting shapes responses to terror and fear, and more what cues we can read from the reaction of others. Are they getting on with it, even appearing nonchalant, or running hellbent to the hills?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Robinson</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/06/cohesion-in-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-6450</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jun 2010 18:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4247#comment-6450</guid>
		<description>&#039;measuring it by whether or not people mention their comrades, or even like them, is flawed methodology. People don’t like to think they behave the way they do because of group norms&#039; - but in fact, from the records I&#039;ve looked at, they are quite prepared to admit to being affected by group norms. The point is that the group in question is more often not the primary group; it has more often been the family, the community from which one comes, or society at large. Actually, the feeling that one should be morally autonomous and not affected by group norms (and thus not want to admit to being so affected) is quite modern, and not, I suspect, a position most people throughout history would have recognised.

Paul</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;measuring it by whether or not people mention their comrades, or even like them, is flawed methodology. People don’t like to think they behave the way they do because of group norms&#8217; &#8211; but in fact, from the records I&#8217;ve looked at, they are quite prepared to admit to being affected by group norms. The point is that the group in question is more often not the primary group; it has more often been the family, the community from which one comes, or society at large. Actually, the feeling that one should be morally autonomous and not affected by group norms (and thus not want to admit to being so affected) is quite modern, and not, I suspect, a position most people throughout history would have recognised.</p>
<p>Paul</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Payne</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/06/cohesion-in-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-6424</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jun 2010 14:36:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=4247#comment-6424</guid>
		<description>Hola Huw, thanks for this.

Rationalism and emotions don&#039;t mix? Come again? Take a look at Mercer (in IO, 2010) on emotional beliefs for a summary of the neuroscience and some thoughts on how that relates to social science, and war. On rationalism and emotion, try Damasio, Descarte&#039;s Error. Or William James from back in the day. Emotions are part of rationality, not an aberration from it, or a layer on top of it. Like I said, arid and flawed &#039;rational&#039; actor models are, thankfully, on their way out. 

As for the science of psychology versus the &#039;science&#039; of war - they&#039;re not mutually exclusive. Consider Clausewitz on the passions of the people, or Thucydides on fear, honour and interest. What could be more psychological than the fear, anger, exhaustion and stress of war, or the exhiliration, vengeance, lust and love in it for that matter? Why wouldn&#039;t those things affect the behaviour of individuals and groups? 

On the small group and combat motivation, I would venture that similar psychological processes are at work in combat as in every other type of human activity - i.e. a combination of social and cognitive psychology. As for the balance, it&#039;s certainly open to debate - and debate there is. But measuring it by whether or not people mention their comrades, or even like them, is flawed methodology. People don&#039;t like to think they behave the way they do because of group norms - it&#039;s bad for your self-esteem to think you&#039;re a sheep,  but there&#039;s a wealth of evidence that we are.

Coming from the man who lent me his copy of Purify and Destroy, I&#039;m a bit surprised! Still, you can definitely critique my paper before I send it in...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hola Huw, thanks for this.</p>
<p>Rationalism and emotions don&#8217;t mix? Come again? Take a look at Mercer (in IO, 2010) on emotional beliefs for a summary of the neuroscience and some thoughts on how that relates to social science, and war. On rationalism and emotion, try Damasio, Descarte&#8217;s Error. Or William James from back in the day. Emotions are part of rationality, not an aberration from it, or a layer on top of it. Like I said, arid and flawed &#8216;rational&#8217; actor models are, thankfully, on their way out. </p>
<p>As for the science of psychology versus the &#8216;science&#8217; of war &#8211; they&#8217;re not mutually exclusive. Consider Clausewitz on the passions of the people, or Thucydides on fear, honour and interest. What could be more psychological than the fear, anger, exhaustion and stress of war, or the exhiliration, vengeance, lust and love in it for that matter? Why wouldn&#8217;t those things affect the behaviour of individuals and groups? </p>
<p>On the small group and combat motivation, I would venture that similar psychological processes are at work in combat as in every other type of human activity &#8211; i.e. a combination of social and cognitive psychology. As for the balance, it&#8217;s certainly open to debate &#8211; and debate there is. But measuring it by whether or not people mention their comrades, or even like them, is flawed methodology. People don&#8217;t like to think they behave the way they do because of group norms &#8211; it&#8217;s bad for your self-esteem to think you&#8217;re a sheep,  but there&#8217;s a wealth of evidence that we are.</p>
<p>Coming from the man who lent me his copy of Purify and Destroy, I&#8217;m a bit surprised! Still, you can definitely critique my paper before I send it in&#8230;</p>
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