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	<title>Comments on: What Prospects For Cyberdeterrence?</title>
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		<title>By: Cyber, Not Cypher &#124; Kings of War</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/04/what-prospects-for-cyberdeterrence/comment-page-1/#comment-8356</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyber, Not Cypher &#124; Kings of War</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Oct 2010 10:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3837#comment-8356</guid>
		<description>[...] said that “it may be possible to use military Cyber capabilities for deterrent effect.” Sure, cyber deterrence is not to be compared with nuclear deterrence or mutually assured destruction. So, well, look into [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] said that “it may be possible to use military Cyber capabilities for deterrent effect.” Sure, cyber deterrence is not to be compared with nuclear deterrence or mutually assured destruction. So, well, look into [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cybersecurity in the US National Security Strategy &#171; ubiwar :: conflict in n dimensions</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/04/what-prospects-for-cyberdeterrence/comment-page-1/#comment-6262</link>
		<dc:creator>Cybersecurity in the US National Security Strategy &#171; ubiwar :: conflict in n dimensions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 22:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3837#comment-6262</guid>
		<description>[...] responses to cyber attacks. Richard Harknett&#8217;s probably spitting teeth about this, given his recent call to abandon explicit cyberdeterrence. Back in 1996, Harknett wrote that cyberdeterrence would [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] responses to cyber attacks. Richard Harknett&#8217;s probably spitting teeth about this, given his recent call to abandon explicit cyberdeterrence. Back in 1996, Harknett wrote that cyberdeterrence would [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Special Ops Against Foreign Servers? &#171; ubiwar :: conflict in n dimensions</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/04/what-prospects-for-cyberdeterrence/comment-page-1/#comment-5502</link>
		<dc:creator>Special Ops Against Foreign Servers? &#171; ubiwar :: conflict in n dimensions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3837#comment-5502</guid>
		<description>[...] with special kinetic operations would presumably redress that imbalance a little. However, for deterrence to work such actions &#8211; or the ability to undertake such actions &#8211; would have to, at [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with special kinetic operations would presumably redress that imbalance a little. However, for deterrence to work such actions &#8211; or the ability to undertake such actions &#8211; would have to, at [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Clemente</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/04/what-prospects-for-cyberdeterrence/comment-page-1/#comment-5428</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Clemente</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 09:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3837#comment-5428</guid>
		<description>Tim, 

Thanks for this article (and for the hat tip on your blog re. EWI). I happened to have read it previously, but it was well worth another look. I agree with much of what he has to say re. the direction of needed change. 

I hear similar establishment arguments for retaining first-tier capabilities here in the UK (i.e. carriers w\ F-35s, continuous at-sea deterrent, etc). But, as Arquilla points out, isn&#039;t the very definition of first-tier gradually shifting? The capabilities that once seemed essential are now looking more like financial millstones. 

As Albon points out, there is a casualty cost for the change to networked swarms, a cost that Americans would be unwilling to pay (at least until a carrier is lost with all hands). However, there are other political barriers to overcome first, namely the diverse and highly-entrenched interests that perpetuate the current system. These barriers cut across the private and public sector, and though Secretary Gates has challenged them, any change remains extremely slow. Huge political battles must be fought before networked swarms can exist in large numbers (or suffer high casualties). 

But back to cyber! Though networked swarms may drive improvement in US cybersecurity, wouldn&#039;t they be only slightly less vulnerable when attacked by hostile and likely much more agile swarms? And how would they swarm adversaries in cyberspace without a McConnell-style &#039;reengineer the internet&#039; initiative, to which other countries may raise ever-so-slight objections. 

As you noted, this is a battle that remains offence-dominated. Perhaps what is needed is a kind of de-perimeterisation (a la Jericho Forum) that acknowledges the impossibility of always protecting everything, while building a high wall around the truly critical bits of value (source code, intel, command and control, etc)? Perhaps networked swarms could be a step in that direction, making an organisation more agile and flexible. The problem, of course, is that regardless of how many swarms we release, for the foreseeable future rigid hierarchies will remain in situ. There will always be a military command or corporate HQ to target at will - hence the need to roll the barriers back to these tall towers, and focus on them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, </p>
<p>Thanks for this article (and for the hat tip on your blog re. EWI). I happened to have read it previously, but it was well worth another look. I agree with much of what he has to say re. the direction of needed change. </p>
<p>I hear similar establishment arguments for retaining first-tier capabilities here in the UK (i.e. carriers w\ F-35s, continuous at-sea deterrent, etc). But, as Arquilla points out, isn&#8217;t the very definition of first-tier gradually shifting? The capabilities that once seemed essential are now looking more like financial millstones. </p>
<p>As Albon points out, there is a casualty cost for the change to networked swarms, a cost that Americans would be unwilling to pay (at least until a carrier is lost with all hands). However, there are other political barriers to overcome first, namely the diverse and highly-entrenched interests that perpetuate the current system. These barriers cut across the private and public sector, and though Secretary Gates has challenged them, any change remains extremely slow. Huge political battles must be fought before networked swarms can exist in large numbers (or suffer high casualties). </p>
<p>But back to cyber! Though networked swarms may drive improvement in US cybersecurity, wouldn&#8217;t they be only slightly less vulnerable when attacked by hostile and likely much more agile swarms? And how would they swarm adversaries in cyberspace without a McConnell-style &#8216;reengineer the internet&#8217; initiative, to which other countries may raise ever-so-slight objections. </p>
<p>As you noted, this is a battle that remains offence-dominated. Perhaps what is needed is a kind of de-perimeterisation (a la Jericho Forum) that acknowledges the impossibility of always protecting everything, while building a high wall around the truly critical bits of value (source code, intel, command and control, etc)? Perhaps networked swarms could be a step in that direction, making an organisation more agile and flexible. The problem, of course, is that regardless of how many swarms we release, for the foreseeable future rigid hierarchies will remain in situ. There will always be a military command or corporate HQ to target at will &#8211; hence the need to roll the barriers back to these tall towers, and focus on them.</p>
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		<title>By: Saturday Stuff &#171; ubiwar :: conflict in n dimensions</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/04/what-prospects-for-cyberdeterrence/comment-page-1/#comment-5426</link>
		<dc:creator>Saturday Stuff &#171; ubiwar :: conflict in n dimensions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 08:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3837#comment-5426</guid>
		<description>[...] c/o a comment left by Dave Clemente on my cyberdeterrence piece at Kings of War earlier this week, comes word of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] c/o a comment left by Dave Clemente on my cyberdeterrence piece at Kings of War earlier this week, comes word of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Stevens</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/04/what-prospects-for-cyberdeterrence/comment-page-1/#comment-5424</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 08:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3837#comment-5424</guid>
		<description>Dave,

Thanks for the EWI link - I&#039;ll check out the report as soon as I can. I was invited to their upcoming conference in Dallas but unfortunately couldn&#039;t make it.

You identify one of the key problems in this field: attribution. It crops up as a problem everywhere you look. John Arquilla outline his solution to this in a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/22/the_new_rules_of_war?page=0,0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;recent article&lt;/a&gt; for &lt;em&gt;Foreign Policy&lt;/em&gt;: smaller, distributed units, out there in the networks, swarming adversaries, etc. Worth a read but see a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.currentintelligence.net/agenda/2010/4/16/the-limits-of-netwar.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;response&lt;/a&gt; to this from Chris Albon at &lt;em&gt;Current Intelligence&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,</p>
<p>Thanks for the EWI link &#8211; I&#8217;ll check out the report as soon as I can. I was invited to their upcoming conference in Dallas but unfortunately couldn&#8217;t make it.</p>
<p>You identify one of the key problems in this field: attribution. It crops up as a problem everywhere you look. John Arquilla outline his solution to this in a <a href="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/22/the_new_rules_of_war?page=0,0" rel="nofollow">recent article</a> for <em>Foreign Policy</em>: smaller, distributed units, out there in the networks, swarming adversaries, etc. Worth a read but see a <a href="http://www.currentintelligence.net/agenda/2010/4/16/the-limits-of-netwar.html" rel="nofollow">response</a> to this from Chris Albon at <em>Current Intelligence</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Clemente</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/04/what-prospects-for-cyberdeterrence/comment-page-1/#comment-5421</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Clemente</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 23:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3837#comment-5421</guid>
		<description>Right on cue indeed. I like Alexander&#039;s emphasis on &#039;firing back&#039; - at what I&#039;m not exactly sure. As you well know, an &#039;elite&#039; US military cyber team can hit a stationary target (the CIA-Saudi honeypot website), but not without disrupting 300 servers in 3 countries. What will they fire back at in the majority of cases where there is no target?

Tim - you may also find this new publication interesting; the EastWest Institute on &#039;Global Cyber Deterrence&#039; - http://www.ewi.info/global-cyber-deterrence</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right on cue indeed. I like Alexander&#8217;s emphasis on &#8216;firing back&#8217; &#8211; at what I&#8217;m not exactly sure. As you well know, an &#8216;elite&#8217; US military cyber team can hit a stationary target (the CIA-Saudi honeypot website), but not without disrupting 300 servers in 3 countries. What will they fire back at in the majority of cases where there is no target?</p>
<p>Tim &#8211; you may also find this new publication interesting; the EastWest Institute on &#8216;Global Cyber Deterrence&#8217; &#8211; <a href="http://www.ewi.info/global-cyber-deterrence" rel="nofollow">http://www.ewi.info/global-cyber-deterrence</a></p>
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		<title>By: Posting posts from better blogs makes this blog better &#171; gringo lost</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/04/what-prospects-for-cyberdeterrence/comment-page-1/#comment-5386</link>
		<dc:creator>Posting posts from better blogs makes this blog better &#171; gringo lost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3837#comment-5386</guid>
		<description>[...] From Tim Stevens at Kings of War, &#8220;What Prospects for Cyberdeterrence?&#8220; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] From Tim Stevens at Kings of War, &#8220;What Prospects for Cyberdeterrence?&#8220; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Stevens</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/04/what-prospects-for-cyberdeterrence/comment-page-1/#comment-5368</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3837#comment-5368</guid>
		<description>It is indeed a very tricky area to resolve, let alone in any politically &#039;safe&#039; way. As if on cue, we get this news story a few hours ago: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jATLd9Qzrn-ioGcLQ4oDf99TgscAD9F2MN6O0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Military asserts right to return cyber attacks&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is indeed a very tricky area to resolve, let alone in any politically &#8216;safe&#8217; way. As if on cue, we get this news story a few hours ago: <a href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jATLd9Qzrn-ioGcLQ4oDf99TgscAD9F2MN6O0" rel="nofollow">Military asserts right to return cyber attacks</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Formerly Grant</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/04/what-prospects-for-cyberdeterrence/comment-page-1/#comment-5366</link>
		<dc:creator>Formerly Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 14:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3837#comment-5366</guid>
		<description>Sadly I&#039;m forced to agree. Though I would prefer to avoid &#039;cyber&#039; races and think that the matter is hardly capable of doomsday predictions I also don&#039;t think that this is an area where one can remain &#039;safe&#039; via defenses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sadly I&#8217;m forced to agree. Though I would prefer to avoid &#8216;cyber&#8217; races and think that the matter is hardly capable of doomsday predictions I also don&#8217;t think that this is an area where one can remain &#8216;safe&#8217; via defenses.</p>
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