<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Bad COIN Wins Votes (apparently)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/03/bad-coin/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/03/bad-coin/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 14:07:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cincinattus Jr.</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/03/bad-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-4807</link>
		<dc:creator>Cincinattus Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3580#comment-4807</guid>
		<description>I think your latter point bears more thought and discussion.  While I agree that there are issues of &quot;philosophy&quot; and mindset among military elites (command structures, &quot;academics&quot; both in and out of uniform, etc.) in terms of COIN vs. conventional strategy, force structuring and the like, IMHO a larger and more intractable set of issues involves the political backdrop (domestic and, especially in contemporary operations, coalitional/ international) that is hypersensitive to the &quot;extent&quot; (troop numbers, composition, deployment, ROE etc.) of military involvement in a given &quot;COIN/CT&quot; operation.

Caverly discusses this aspect in the context of the USMC CAP effort in Vietnam and the extent to which that model could have been extended throughout the country.  As he noted, it was recognized at the time and in the years after the war that such an approach was very troop-intensive such that any significant expansion would require force levels that were otherwise &quot;unacceptable&quot; politically, especially if a conflict was &quot;mixed&quot; in the sense that, as Westmoreland believed, some capability had to also be maintained for more conventional threats.   Thus, a distributed operations model for COIN has an inherent drawback in that it presses on the most sensitive point of the overall politico/military effort--the need for more forces than the political leaders of the COIN nation(s) are willing or able to commit.  This is quite evident in the recent much-delayed decision by the Obama administration grudgingly granting only in part McChrystal&#039;s request for reinforcement (especially when one remembers, in spite of the White House effort to obfuscate the point, that the numbers requested were the bare minimum needed) and in the on-going hand-wringing throughout the rest of NATO as to what, if any, future contributions to the Afghanistan effort its members will make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your latter point bears more thought and discussion.  While I agree that there are issues of &#8220;philosophy&#8221; and mindset among military elites (command structures, &#8220;academics&#8221; both in and out of uniform, etc.) in terms of COIN vs. conventional strategy, force structuring and the like, IMHO a larger and more intractable set of issues involves the political backdrop (domestic and, especially in contemporary operations, coalitional/ international) that is hypersensitive to the &#8220;extent&#8221; (troop numbers, composition, deployment, ROE etc.) of military involvement in a given &#8220;COIN/CT&#8221; operation.</p>
<p>Caverly discusses this aspect in the context of the USMC CAP effort in Vietnam and the extent to which that model could have been extended throughout the country.  As he noted, it was recognized at the time and in the years after the war that such an approach was very troop-intensive such that any significant expansion would require force levels that were otherwise &#8220;unacceptable&#8221; politically, especially if a conflict was &#8220;mixed&#8221; in the sense that, as Westmoreland believed, some capability had to also be maintained for more conventional threats.   Thus, a distributed operations model for COIN has an inherent drawback in that it presses on the most sensitive point of the overall politico/military effort&#8211;the need for more forces than the political leaders of the COIN nation(s) are willing or able to commit.  This is quite evident in the recent much-delayed decision by the Obama administration grudgingly granting only in part McChrystal&#8217;s request for reinforcement (especially when one remembers, in spite of the White House effort to obfuscate the point, that the numbers requested were the bare minimum needed) and in the on-going hand-wringing throughout the rest of NATO as to what, if any, future contributions to the Afghanistan effort its members will make.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: More cognitive challenges of war &#8211; LBJ and Vietnam &#124; Kings of War</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/03/bad-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-4680</link>
		<dc:creator>More cognitive challenges of war &#8211; LBJ and Vietnam &#124; Kings of War</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 12:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3580#comment-4680</guid>
		<description>[...] just enjoyed reading David&#8217;s recent post on Vietnam. It struck a chord (though as a reformed economist, I can&#8217;t abide rational choice [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] just enjoyed reading David&#8217;s recent post on Vietnam. It struck a chord (though as a reformed economist, I can&#8217;t abide rational choice [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Note to Readers &#124; Kings of War</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/03/bad-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-4644</link>
		<dc:creator>Note to Readers &#124; Kings of War</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 17:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3580#comment-4644</guid>
		<description>[...] contributing to the debate by leaving comments. That has generated some great discussions &#8211; theoretical, practical, and even political &#8211; where scholars, staffers, and soldiers mingle. It will [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] contributing to the debate by leaving comments. That has generated some great discussions &#8211; theoretical, practical, and even political &#8211; where scholars, staffers, and soldiers mingle. It will [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paid In Full</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/03/bad-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-4640</link>
		<dc:creator>Paid In Full</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 14:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3580#comment-4640</guid>
		<description>I would absolutely agree with The Faceless Bureaucrat in the importance of the &#039;surgency (nation-building surely!). In my analysis of the Vietnam conflict and the literature around it I rapidly concluded that in not looking very hard at the South Vietnamese themselves most of the main literature in my opinion totally misses the point. It surprised me somewhat that with some digging a lot well (if dryly!) written and in depth stuff had been done in the various academic journals (notably Asian Survey) about this (South Vietnamese politics [legitimacy of], economics, social &amp; rural development, etc) but its mostly been forgotten and left behind - many of the books hadn&#039;t been out of the library since the early 70s!. So I would definitely agree with the above comment, and urge others to take a look, it makes the conflict look complicated again.

Regarding the article I am also sceptical, particularly considering that at its 1968 peak the US commitment stood at roughly 500,000 men. Its difficult to consider the overall force level to be anything other than &#039;labour intensive&#039; regardless of how they were used. Only when Westmoreland asked for 200,000 more to be deployed following the Tet offensive did the US commitment stop expanding. A lot of soldiers considering the size (and in hindsight the importance) of South Vietnam. And as David mentions in the original post, 36,000 of them didn&#039;t come back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would absolutely agree with The Faceless Bureaucrat in the importance of the &#8216;surgency (nation-building surely!). In my analysis of the Vietnam conflict and the literature around it I rapidly concluded that in not looking very hard at the South Vietnamese themselves most of the main literature in my opinion totally misses the point. It surprised me somewhat that with some digging a lot well (if dryly!) written and in depth stuff had been done in the various academic journals (notably Asian Survey) about this (South Vietnamese politics [legitimacy of], economics, social &amp; rural development, etc) but its mostly been forgotten and left behind &#8211; many of the books hadn&#8217;t been out of the library since the early 70s!. So I would definitely agree with the above comment, and urge others to take a look, it makes the conflict look complicated again.</p>
<p>Regarding the article I am also sceptical, particularly considering that at its 1968 peak the US commitment stood at roughly 500,000 men. Its difficult to consider the overall force level to be anything other than &#8216;labour intensive&#8217; regardless of how they were used. Only when Westmoreland asked for 200,000 more to be deployed following the Tet offensive did the US commitment stop expanding. A lot of soldiers considering the size (and in hindsight the importance) of South Vietnam. And as David mentions in the original post, 36,000 of them didn&#8217;t come back.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The Faceless Bureaucrat</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/03/bad-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-4635</link>
		<dc:creator>The Faceless Bureaucrat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3580#comment-4635</guid>
		<description>One aspect that I think is often overlooked, or at least under-appreciated, in Vietnam and also in more comtempory situations, is that when there are &#039;foreign forces&#039; involved in COIN, there are three elements to &#039;counter-insurgency&#039;, all of which interact with each other, affecting the outcome.

The first is an insurgency, of course, whether it can be described, as is the latest fashion, as Maoist, post-Maoist or otherwise.  It has a dynamic that is created not only by its founding ideology, but also by the interests and abilities of those prosecuting it.  Rarely will an insurgency be like any other, due to variations in history, motivation, ability, culture, geography, timing, etc.

The second is a counter-insurgency programme.  This, too, has a diverse number of elements: a strategy, based on an understanding (complete or wrong, or in between) of the insurgency and on a number of domestic and institutional influences (&#039;we don&#039;t do nation-building&#039;, for instance); the execution of that strategy, based on the ability to turn an idea into effective practice; the list goes on.

These are not often overlooked and have been well discussed elsewhere.  What is overlooked, in my opinion, is what might be called &#039;surgency&#039;: the government&#039;s ability to govern the country.  If the government is corrupt, out of touch, or otherwise illegitimate, this has an enourmous impact on the effectiveness of any COIN campaign, quite apart from issues like military effectiveness, messaging, etc.  The governments of South Vietnam, whether civilian or later military, were not &#039;surgent&#039;.  Therefore, attempts to shore them up by means of US counter-insurgent strategies were unlikely to be effective.  

The same might be hypothesised for Afghanistan.  If the US wins the hearts and minds of the local population on their own merits (because they are careful, considerate, and contrite in the military operations, for instance) but the Kabul based government does not, this legitimacy cannot be transferred &#039;by proxy&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One aspect that I think is often overlooked, or at least under-appreciated, in Vietnam and also in more comtempory situations, is that when there are &#8216;foreign forces&#8217; involved in COIN, there are three elements to &#8216;counter-insurgency&#8217;, all of which interact with each other, affecting the outcome.</p>
<p>The first is an insurgency, of course, whether it can be described, as is the latest fashion, as Maoist, post-Maoist or otherwise.  It has a dynamic that is created not only by its founding ideology, but also by the interests and abilities of those prosecuting it.  Rarely will an insurgency be like any other, due to variations in history, motivation, ability, culture, geography, timing, etc.</p>
<p>The second is a counter-insurgency programme.  This, too, has a diverse number of elements: a strategy, based on an understanding (complete or wrong, or in between) of the insurgency and on a number of domestic and institutional influences (&#8216;we don&#8217;t do nation-building&#8217;, for instance); the execution of that strategy, based on the ability to turn an idea into effective practice; the list goes on.</p>
<p>These are not often overlooked and have been well discussed elsewhere.  What is overlooked, in my opinion, is what might be called &#8216;surgency&#8217;: the government&#8217;s ability to govern the country.  If the government is corrupt, out of touch, or otherwise illegitimate, this has an enourmous impact on the effectiveness of any COIN campaign, quite apart from issues like military effectiveness, messaging, etc.  The governments of South Vietnam, whether civilian or later military, were not &#8216;surgent&#8217;.  Therefore, attempts to shore them up by means of US counter-insurgent strategies were unlikely to be effective.  </p>
<p>The same might be hypothesised for Afghanistan.  If the US wins the hearts and minds of the local population on their own merits (because they are careful, considerate, and contrite in the military operations, for instance) but the Kabul based government does not, this legitimacy cannot be transferred &#8216;by proxy&#8217;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alec</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/03/bad-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-4628</link>
		<dc:creator>Alec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 02:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3580#comment-4628</guid>
		<description>Perfect timing.  I was just discussing this article with a colleague last week.  What Caverley did not mention is Westmoreland&#039;s inability to adopt a labour intensive population-centric COIN strategy.  This rejection wasn’t a by-product of American domestic politics.  Westmoreland flatly refused to put his troops into the villages close to the people because of the US military&#039;s serious problems with discipline, morale and drug abuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perfect timing.  I was just discussing this article with a colleague last week.  What Caverley did not mention is Westmoreland&#8217;s inability to adopt a labour intensive population-centric COIN strategy.  This rejection wasn’t a by-product of American domestic politics.  Westmoreland flatly refused to put his troops into the villages close to the people because of the US military&#8217;s serious problems with discipline, morale and drug abuse.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: [From KoW] Bad COIN Wins Votes (apparently) &#187; David H. Ucko</title>
		<link>http://kingsofwar.org.uk/2010/03/bad-coin/comment-page-1/#comment-4622</link>
		<dc:creator>[From KoW] Bad COIN Wins Votes (apparently) &#187; David H. Ucko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 22:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingsofwar.org.uk/?p=3580#comment-4622</guid>
		<description>[...] [To comment, please visit original post] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] [To comment, please visit original post] [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

